"We were going for heavy noir vibes for sure, but probably also a little bit of a mix of different noir sub-genres."
- Juli Bierwirth (Distant Rabbit Games)
Note: This is not a word for word transcript of the interview, some grammatical mistakes and other things of that nature were altered. For the full unaltered transcript, go find this interview listed under the interviews tab in The Social Deduction Network discord.
Dino: It is a nice Saturday here at the Social Deduction Network because we are joined by Distant Rabbit Games, creators of “Mantis Falls,” which is currently in the middle of its kickstarter campaign. Now, as you’ll soon find out, I like to start with a hard-hitting question. When I hear the title of your game, I think of all those Youtube videos where people fall, and viewers laugh. Who is Mantis, and why are you making him fall for our twisted amusement? Is your game aiming to desensitize our youth? Are you hoping your game fosters a generation that lacks empathy? If not, to what does the title refer?
Juli: The title was originally the game of trust but it turned out people didn’t really enjoy that! We wanted a name that evoked things like Twin Peaks and Mulholland Drive.
Dino: "Game of Trust"? Yeah... Not a catchy title… I see. Is there a possibility of encountering the Black Lodge while playing Mantis Falls?
Juli: Oh man, I wish. Yeah, haha, now we can call it the working title. By the way, it’s an honor to be being interviewed by our most prolific commenter!
Dino: Honor is all mine. There are many things about your game that seem to draw in droves of backers, and I wanted to take some time to ask you about some of the ones that I personally found appealing. First off, this is a social deduction game for 2-3 players? What? Aren’t social deduction games supposed to be played with at least four players? Why did you decide to create a game with such a low player count?
Juli: Yeah, so that’s a great question: My partner and I have been long-distance for pretty much all of our relationship. We started playing a lot of digital versions of board games together. One of the things that we found was that the level of interaction was just not there for us. Most of the games that we could find to play, and this was before we understood about tabletop simulator, were sort of partners solitaire. We have always loved hidden trader games because of the level of interaction, and out of that need Adrian had the idea for this game.
Dino: Well, that is really, very sweet! Really, I don't think anything is better for a couple than a game that has them constantly questioning their loyalty to one another. Distant Rabbit Games0: You’d think not! My parents sure wondered what it meant.
Dino: I've played social deduction games with people who have yelled at me for not trusting them.
Juli: The only time we ever played werewolf with them my dad looked my fiancé in the eyes and asked if he really wanted to be caught lying to the father of the woman he intended to marry!
Dino: Whoa…
Juli: Yeah, I feel like that’s a common first response to social deduction until you realize that doesn’t really work as a strategy. But actually the thing that I love about Mantis Falls most is that it really comes down to the desire to trust one another. Co-op games can be great but to me they are a bit ruined by the fact that you know the others share your motivation It’s so much more satisfying to win a co-op game where you had to really trust the other person in order to win. Plus it removes quarterbacking.
Dino: Yes, yes... but did your fiancé lie to your father or not? Don't change the subject!
Juli: Haha, He told my dad that that put him in a very tough position ...and that was about as good as a confession.
Dino: Fathers... The look and theme of this game are also quite appealing. How would you describe them?
Juli: We were going for heavy noir vibes for sure, but probably also a little bit of a mix of different noir sub-genres. Our action cards were meant to look a little bit more old-school horror, sort of like old lithography and medical illustrations. We have a fair few silhouettes, which is great because we really wanted to leave a lot up to the players imagination.
Dino: Yes, it has an official and serious look, as if the cards are important documents with information vital to your survival. I'm usually a sucker for the over-the-top art that comes with social deduction games, but the art for your game seems grounded and appropriate for the intimate game that it is.
Juli: Overall we weren’t going for old school film noir - most of our inspiration was drawn from being neo noir.
Dino: Well, it definitely shows.
Juli: Thanks!
Dino: Players take on the role of witnesses who meet up to work together because their lives are in danger, and they must take a dangerous path to safety. The only problem is that one of their own might be an assassin there to kill the other(s) when the time is right. What are the win conditions of each of the roles?
Juli:So if you are a witness, you win by either getting everyone out of town safely (no assassin) or killing the assassin without another witness dying in the process. If you are an assassin you have to kill the witness. Or really, a witness. Once a player dies or everyone is at the end of the road the game is over.
Dino: So, the assassin does not need to complete the road after killing a witness? And if an assassin is killed, the witnesses do not need to finish?
Juli: Correct. An assassin is only on the journey to kill a witness. That player has no real need to get out.
Dino: I see. What is to stop an assassin from killing a witness immediately?
Juli: Ahhh, that’s the best question. So the first layer of “how does 2p social deduction work” is: Don’t I always know who the traitor is? Which is why it has to be a sometimes traitor game. The second layer is “if you’re playing 2p you’re not outnumbered... why not attack immediately?”. We have a card called “call in a hit”, it’s sort of like the name and number of a mercenary sniper who can take out an assassin if needed. Only witnesses can play it. If they play it wrongly, they possibly kill another witness and lose the game, so people aren’t incentivized to use that to prove their status, but they also must be near a phone to make the call. Phones become few and far between as you get deeper into the night so an assassin has to really convince you, while you are near a phone, that they are on your side.
Dino: Ah! So if a player is too aggressive in trying to kill the other, the witness will realize it's an assassin and eliminate him.
Juli: Yes.
Dino: That is cool. I like that.
Juli: It’s not a sure fire kill, but it’s close Yeah, we had to make it that you couldn’t use it to prove you were a witness, that you wouldn’t want to use it recklessly, and that it made the first part of the game about tenuous trust building It’s the most to betray someone when you’ve taken the time to build the trust
Dino: With players working so closely with one another for so long throughout the game, do you ever see players who play as the assassin become hesitant to carry out their duty to kill the other player(s) like an undercover agent that has gone in too deep?
Juli: Oh yeah, all the time.
Dino: Are assassins known to lose simply because they didn't have the heart to go through with it?
Juli: Adrian and I played on Valentines and it was an unusually punishing game that lasted 4 hours.
Dino: Oh... How romantic...?
Juli: We were hanging on by our fingernails and soooo close to making it to the end- he’d all but proved himself as a witness with his actions. If he was an assassin he’d had a clear shot at my probably a dozen times over.
Dino: And then he went and lied to your father?
Juli: Haha! I had a condition on me called “pied piper”- which lets you heal wounds on the condition that you die when you hit the end of the road, and he’d gotten the “conditional release” card to get rid of that for me so that we could end the game together as witnesses. Instead of playing the conditions release he played a “badger” which pushed me onto the last road and killed me. He said he hated doing it- that I so clearly trusted him and we’d overcome so much in that super long game. I couldn’t believe it!
Dino: Yikes... I won't ask what happened after that…
Juli: Haha, we were in different cities playing online, fortunately.
Dino: Ah, so you could hate him from afar, which isn't as bad.
Juli: It’s one of my favorite games we’ve ever had. I love a good surprise!
Dino: Oh. What a twist! So this path that players take… What makes it so dangerous? I understand that winning is challenging even when no players are assassins. What factors bring about this challenge?
Juli: Every step a player takes they draw an event. The events are a mix of guys that come at you from alleyways and just brutal stuff happening in the night- storms, etc. Sometimes you can beat the event by doing damage to it, sometimes you can prevent the storm, but you wind up taking a lot of wounds. But even if there is no assassin there is the specter of one. Player who are witnesses often kill each other out of mistrust.
Dino: Yes, there is actually a good chance that none of the players will be assassins. In your experiences with play-testing this game, do you find that players tend to be more trusting or paranoid as a result of this?
Juli: Trusting at first, If they’ve never played before. Then paranoid, and then they wind up in a healthy place in the middle. It also depends on how good a liar the assassin is. If you’re playing with someone who can’t bluff the game is over before it’s begun.
Dino: Or how jumpy the witnesses are…
Juli: Yeah, that too.
Dino: So, on to the most important question… How many werewolves are in this game? I’ll assume there’s at least two. I mean, what’s social deduction without werewolves; am I right?
Juli: Hahahahaha!
Dino: Hmm? Two is too small a guess?
Juli: No resistance or dead of winter for you, eh?
Dino: No werewolves? Well... That's what stretch goals are for, right?
Juli: Haha, maybe a pledge tier next time where you get a werewolf meeple with the game!
Dino: Yes! Hope has been restored. What are some of your favorite social deduction games, and were any of them inspirations for “Mantis Falls”?
Juli: Werewolf was my first social deduction game. Adrian and I played Resistance a lot in grad school- but we didn’t play almost any others before he had the inspiration for Mantis Falls.
Dino: Hey, those are classics.
Juli: Since then (4+ years ago) we’ve played a lot. I started with the deck of cards version.
Dino: One Night Ultimate Werewolf started it all for me.
Juli: But we’ve played deception, dark moon, BSG, dead of winter, etc. We (and our kids too) love hidden traitor/social deduction. I think I can say this more comfortably than Adrian can, since he designed the gameplay. None of them quite have for me what Mantis Falls has, I might be biased tho!
Dino: Must make for a fun family night.
Juli: Haha, our kids have gotten very good at lying.
Dino: Perhaps... But your bias stems from the fact that you enjoyed playing it and you really enjoyed the person you were playing with. The best games have that effect on people.
Juli: That’s certainly true!
Dino: Unfortunately for my kids, I can usually see right through their strategy or convince others they are lying when I know they aren't, but they get better every time we play.
Juli: Oh yeah, they used to be quite transparent like that.
Dino: Mine are aged 10, 8, and 4, so they have time to improve.
Juli: Taylor, our son, is 14 now and has been playing Mantis Falls with us since he was 9... he’s got it down. Wendy is 11 and she’s just starting to get to be an excellent liar.
Dino: Oh, they must make you so proud.
Juli: Grooming children to be excellent game players is the responsibility of society as a whole.
Dino: In your kickstarter campaign, I’ve seen comments reflecting the idea that the game is slowly turning into a deluxe version. What are some of the stretch goals that you’ve unlocked so far that might be contributing to this sentiment?
Juli: So originally the game was almost 100% card based We’ve added some wooden life trackers, a playmat, some higher quality meeples, some improvements on cards and box quality… We’ve got an original soundtrack coming, as well as some other future stretch goals.
Dino: Oooh!
Juli: We always wanted the game to be affordable, portable, and environmentally friendly. So as long as upgrades fit that bill we want them.
Dino: Do you have any more awesome stretch goals waiting in the wings? Perhaps a hairy one with sharp teeth?
Juli: For sure we have more, but they’re under lock and key!
Dino: I looked into it, and werewolves would fit in the box.
Juli: Did they have werewolves in the 40s?
Dino: Fictionally speaking, they've had them since the dawn of time. Okay, okay… This is your first kickstarter campaign. What has surprised you the most so far?
Juli:Yes, this is our first We had years of prep and advice from folks who were experienced but wow, lots of surprises! People are so kind.
Dino: I definitely get the sense that you were prepared.
Juli: I mean, I believe in people being great in general, but people are so supportive of us it’s wild!
Dino: Hopefully they aren't only being kind to gain your trust…
Juli: Hahaha!
Dino: But hey, even if it's just an act, at least you love surprises.
Juli: If the bottom fell out of this whole thing that would be the ultimate hidden traitor move.... I hadn’t even considered it.
Dino: Maybe they are just waiting until the phone booths are few and far between…
Juli: Perhaps! :)
Dino: Hope not. I'm one of the witnesses, you know? I have a feeling this game will one day have an expansion or two. I am thinking you have already thought about it, too. What are some of your ideas?
Juli: The reception has been incredible. Oh yeah, we’ve thought about it. We have a prequel we’ve been working on, and some expansions to this game!
Dino: Oooh! Is Darth Maul in it?
Juli: Haha, no. Thank goodness.
Dino: Aw…
Juli: It’s not anything official yet.
Dino: Have you considered the possibility of a second assassin, where there is a tiny chance of all players secretly being assassins who lose if they kill a fellow assassin? What if you could arrange a two-player game that had a ⅓ chance of all players being witnesses, a ⅓ chance that one assassin would be in play, and a ⅓ chance that both players were assassins? What do you think of that idea? Just for kicks, the second assassin could be a werewolf…
Juli: We had thought about that but not in an official capacity.
Dino: It would make both players paranoid, no matter what their role.
Juli: We are putting in extra role cards so that players can come up with variants and house rules.
Dino: Cool! This occurred to me during the interview, but are you called "DISTANT Rabbit Games" because you and your partner played so many games while being away from one another? Just curious.
Juli: Hahaha, no actually…I hadn’t thought of that!
Dino: Oh. I thought I figured something out… Dang it? Can't you just say that's the reason? Such a sweet story you have…
Juli: We were looking all over for a name that had the feeling of being wary and flighty. We tried lots of options but everything was taken.
Dino: You made a social deduction game. You can lie, you know? You could say the reason was the one I assumed, but that you also liked it because it sounds flighty and wary. Come on! Anyway, the name suits you guys. Serendipity, I guess.
Juli: We love animal symbolism!
Dino: I hare it's popular. I love animal puns.
Juli: But yeah, he came up with that one and we looked it up. Turns out people on the internet are frequently worried that their rabbit is seeming distant!
Dino: Distant rabbits can't eat my crops, so I'm fine with it. Okay, I don't have crops, but… Anyway… What’s next for Distant Rabbit Games? Can we expect more Social Deduction games from you in the future, or do you think your next game will be something else entirely?
Juli: We really like the sometimes cooperative genre.
Dino: Yes, I can imagine!
Juli: Different win scenarios based on truths of the game state that are unknown. We’ve got about 4-5 games in the works.
Dino: Before we go, may I wager a guess about the prequel's name?
Juli: Sure!
Dino: Really? Wow! Okay... My guess: "Mantis Stands".
Juli: Hahahaha, so close!
Dino: Dang it! Thought for sure that would be it… Mantis Falls-Episode I: The Werewolf Appears?
Juli: I won’t say anything because it’s a work in progress.
Dino: Okay... Well, we greatly appreciate the time you took away from your busy campaign to join us!
Juli: Of course! We’re excited you asked!
Dino: Mantis Falls is on Kickstarter right now, and looks to be an awesome addition to the collection of any social deduction fan. Back it today!
Juli: Thanks Dino!
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