"I wanted to make a game that felt a bit more devious to play with your friends."
- Liam Cantwell
Note: This is not a word for word transcript of the interview, some grammatical mistakes and other things of that nature were altered. For the full unaltered transcript, go find this interview listed under the interviews tab in The Social Deduction Network discord.
Dino: The Social Deduction Network is excited to have Liam Cantwell, creator of Woodlings, a Social Deduction game with a culty twist. Now, most of us I’m sure, have been a part of a dangerous cult that expects its followers to periodically make human sacrifices, now and then; how much of this game is autobiographical, and how much of it is inspired by the life of Tom Cruise?
Joey: Well thank you very much, I'm flattered!
Dino: You are welcome! I understand your hesitation to answer. Those scientologists have eyes everywhere…
Joey: I'd have to say the former, I've played the sacrificial game of Mafia many times with many different groups of friends over the years and Woodlings was definitely built off of that experience. I wanted to make a game that felt a bit more devious to play with your friends. But speaking of scientology I'm also a big fan of Lovecraft which inspired the "ancients" in Woodlings so there's that too!
Dino: Oh... Maybe they would actually like this game; who knows… I am very happy that Woodlings is relaunching. I discovered it very late in its first campaign when it seemed unlikely to succeed. Were there any lessons you learned in that first attempt that you think will help you in your second?
Joey: Who knows indeed, and glad to hear it! Well I'm still in university with a small part-time job and Woodlings was my first real business venture/fully fledged game so I believe I made a few 'amateur' mistakes with the first campaign The main issue I think was the lack of publicity, which I'm hoping to remedy by sending a bunch of copies of the game to several popular board game bloggers in order to spread the word. This time round there will be a $10 AUD discount on the game for the first 100 backers which I hope will get the ball rolling a bit.
Dino: That's smart! I think many of us made rookie mistakes in college. One time I cheated to win the scare games. Wait... No, that was Monster's University... Never mind… I have seen such tactics work in the past. Here's hoping they help with your campaign as well.
Joey: Oh I'm sure many can relate to that experience regardless. Here's hoping!
Dino: Will the game be the same as the game presented during the first campaign, or have you made any changes?
Joey: The game is pretty much the same, however there were a few Woodlings with some badly-designed abilities which were revealed through playtesting, so those have gotten a bit of a makeover. Now the game is in a place I'm very happy with.
Dino: Oh, nice. Got to love the wisdom that comes from playtesting! I’m sure there are many people out there that are not yet familiar with this game. Could you tell us about the gameplay and mechanics?
Joey: Harsh, valuable wisdom. Sure! I'm sure many people are familiar with the game of mafia/werewolf, Woodlings is directly inspired by those games but with a few key twists
Firstly, the playable characters, the Woodlings. There are 12 of them in total, all with unique abilities and traits. Also each player controls TWO Woodlings so they have a unique little team every game. The Killer (the mafia/werewolf) of the game must kill two other Woodlings and not be caught to win. The catch is that these victims must have traits (such as furry bodies or blue-eyes) that appeal to an Ancient being that is chosen at the beginning of the game This catch gives the other players small hints as to who the killer may target, and who they may be.
Dino: Ah! I see. So, the preferences of the Ancient can be used against it, deductionally speaking. Is "deductionally" a word? Well... it should be… It does beg the question, though... Do the Ancients seek these traits because they must be present in their diet... or are their preferences akin to the preferences of serial killers who target a specific type. Guess I'm just curious about the psychology of these Ancients… Anyway… Even though some characters are sacrificed, there is no player elimination. How did you manage to do that?
Joey: I'd agree with you on deductionally, and yes! Oh it varies from Ancient to Ancient, most of them are just picky eaters!
Dino: Ah! So these Ancients are even more like my own children than I realized…
Joey: I understand where you're coming from! But yes! There's no player elimination in Woodlings, that was one of the least fun parts of Mafia/Werewolf so I wanted to remedy that in my game.
Dino: Yeah! I mean, you go to the trouble of making sacrifices for them, but then it's, "No! Get me a creature with bigger eyes." So frustrating, but I digress…
Joey: Haha, but yeah having to sit there while everyone else plays the game is never fun. Since every player controls two Woodlings, it means that if one of them is sacrificed, they can still keep playing with the remaining one.
Dino: So, if I understand it correctly, throughout the game, a total of two woodlings might be sacrificed, but because each player has two woodlings, they will always have at least one until the game ends through the sacrifice of that second woodling. Is that correct? Of course, if the killer is caught, the game could end before two woodlings are sacrificed, yes?
Joey: Yes exactly! Being targeted by the killer still leaves you with less options but doesn't remove you from the game entirely. And yes, a very smart bunch of players could also definitely catch the killer on the first night.
Dino: Nice! I think that is pretty cool, and a smart way of avoiding player elimination.
Joey: Thank you! I'm glad you think so!
Dino: I sometimes hear about drastic changes made to a game’s theme, objective, and mechanics. Has this game gone through many changes since its inception?
Joey: Oh there was one mechanic called "obligations" which I scrapped very early on.
Dino: Guess you didn't feel like you had to keep it? ...that was a joke... What did it do?
Joey: Oh joke or not you hit the nail on the head, it made the game less organic and fun. The idea was that each Ancient had an "obligation" on their card, which would restrict all players into only asking very specific questions during the discussion/voting stages of the game. Since there are always three Ancients in play out of a pool of 11 (randomly selected) it meant that players could essentially only ask three types of questions.
Dino: When it comes to game design, I have heard it said that the simpler you can make the game, the better. Sounds like a good thing to remove. I like to ask all kinds of things during the discussions. That's one of the best parts of social deduction.
Joey: I think that's very true, in playtesting, me and my friends learnt quickly that it was much more fun to ignore the obligations and just try to work out who the killer was amongst ourselves.
Dino: I notice this game has a very interesting player count: 2-6 players. That lower player count is pretty significant, considering most social deduction games require at least three players. Did you aim to create a game with a lower player count, or did it just happen?
Joey: Yep I agree, it also lets players bluff and deceive each other a lot easier which I think is another great element of social deduction games. I'm glad you brought that up I should address that too: I created a few specific sets of rules for 2 player games and games for 7-12 players (which you can play if you have 2 copies of the game).
Dino: Oh, really? I didn't realize that during the first campaign…
Joey: Yep I can understand that now, another amateur mistake on my part. After some consideration I've decided to market Woodlings as a 3-6 player game in the relaunch. Mainly because for the proper experience of the game you need the standard 3-6 people and I don't want to mislead people. I will release these rulesets online so people can still play these modes but I've decided not to include them in the physical instructions of the game in order to avoid confusion and deliver a clear, concise game.
Dino: I see. But you have play-tested games with 7-12 players?
Joey: Yes I have and it actually works well although it is very chaotic with more people in the discussion.
Dino: And the game will also have a 2-player variant, or has that been scrapped?
Joey: I will release the 2 player rules as well yes, that variant also works well in my opinion but is a very different experience from the standard rules for Woodlings (in a 3-6 player game).
Dino: This is just me speculating, but it might not be a bad idea to make it clear that buying two games would allow players to up the player count. Maybe you could even include a tier that includes two copies of the games and modified rules...? Anyway... just a thought… I really like the look of this game. The art is fantastic. It manages to be simple, appealing, cute, creepy, and sinister. It’s a fine balance. Who is the artist, and what were you going for with this art style?
Joey: No that's a very good thought, I might make that clear in the reward tiers for the campaign this time round. And thank you! I'm the artist for all the cards, Woodlings is pretty much a solo project.
Dino: Oh! I did not realize that! Very cool.
Joey: I wanted to go for exactly that. Cute, creepy and sinister is a good summary Sorta invoking the same energy as the Nightmare before Christmas or Coraline for example.
Dino: I am acclaimed far and wide for my ability to summarize!
Joey: It's a worthy talent!
Dino: Ah! My daughter is a big fan of those films. Coraline did freak her out, but she brings it up a lot. She's only four…
Joey: Your daughter and I have similar sentiments towards those films!
Dino: Anyway, there is a distinct difference between the art of woodlings and the ancients, and rightly so, with the woodlings having color and the ancients existing in black and white...
Joey: Ah I'm glad that you noticed! Yes that was a design choice to differentiate the cards.
Dino: ...But there is one choice that you made with the ancients that is difficult for me to accept. You decided not to include a werewolf. Care to explain yourself?
Joey: Ok, let me explain!
Dino: This had better be good…
Joey: In the process of making the Ancients I wasn't sure whether to base them off cryptids (like folk-tale monsters) or otherworldly, cosmic-horror-type creatures. In the end I chose the latter since I liked the idea of making a bunch of weird, abstract monsters from scratch. If I went with the cryptid idea there would be a werewolf I assure you!
Dino: Lousy creativity... It often gets in the way of werewolf inclusion… Well... that's good to know…
Joey: Sorry to disappoint in that regard, truly.
Dino: I'll live with it… As an aside, the game theme and art reminds me of an old South Park episode. There were all these adorable, talking woodland creatures… but they would periodically and willingly offer themselves to be eaten alive by the others. It was disturbing and gruesome... But it was great!
Joey: Ohh I might have to check that episode out!
Dino: It was quite a while ago... One of the earlier seasons, I think.
Joey: I have got a few ideas for a Woodlings expansion if the game does well enough, perhaps there might be a werewolf or two to include in there…
Dino: Ah! I was going to ask about expansions! What are your ideas, if you don't mind?
Joey: No I don't mind at all! They're very general at the moment since I don't want to count my chickens before they've hatched. But I'm playing around with the idea of adding a few more roles besides 'killer' and 'innocent', along with a few new types of Woodling somewhere along the supernatural side of things.
Dino: That sounds promising!
Joey: I wont say any more than than since these ideas aren't fully formed yet, but they're certainly in the works!
Dino: A third team, type of thing? Do you think a future version of this game might add a second killer? If so, do you think the two killers would work together, or would they be in competition?
Joey: Yep, that's a good way to put it! The two Killers is a concept that is in play with the 7-12 player version of the game (which I've dubbed "chaos mode") And in that mode the two killers CAN win together but the limited pool of Woodlings means that sometimes they have a conflict of interest with which woodling to target if it means that one Killer will be left with not enough sacrifices to sate their chosen Ancient. I hope that makes some sort of sense, but I'll be releasing the full instructions for this mode later on so you'll be able to read it in detail there.
Dino: That sounds cool! And I hope this campaign goes well so you can get to brainstorming on expansions… Let’s say the campaign does go very well. Are you planning on adding stretch goals?
Joey: Yes, I am hoping for the best! I've added a few stretch goals which go from upgrading the card stock to foil-stamping the game box for a real nice finish TO adding more cards to the game, all for free if the stretch goal is met of course!
Dino: Nice! Those upgrades are always welcome.
Joey: They're always a nice little bonus I agree.
Dino: Can we expect more social deduction games from you in the future, or do you think you might go in a wildly different direction moving forward?
Joey: Ooh I couldn't say for certain but I have got a mystery visual novel game in the works which I'm hoping to eventually release. Woodlings and the possible expansions are the main focus for now though. I suppose mystery/deduction based games of some sort is a safe bet for future projects.
Dino: Oh, interesting! Cool! I'm sure we'll stay tuned. Well, thank you Mr. Liam Cantwell for making time for us today. Everyone can back your game Woodlings when the campaign launches at the end of the month. We’ll be promoting it here on this discord channel when it does.
Joey: Well thank you very much! It was nice speaking with ya!
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